Episode 123: How to be Disciplined in the Dissertation Process

This week on the podcast, Marvette talks with a client, friend and colleague Dr. Roshaunda Breeden about her dissertation process, what motivated her to hire a coach and what kept her disciplined while she was completing her dissertation.

Connect with Dr. Roshaunda Breeden on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr_breeden/

Follow along on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/marvettelacy/

TRANSCRIPT:

Okay. We are back another week and I'm so excited. We've been doing interviews with just dope people, dope conversations, and today is no different. Got the amazing Dr. Rashonda  Breeden  with us today. I don't know. I can't talk today clearly, but I just feel like you, I feel like I've said this before, but I just feel like we should have been friends earlier. Like, I don't know how that did not happen. But everything happens the way it's supposed to. And I'm so glad we have connected on so many levels, but you know, you just never meet somebody like yes, local as friend, we never met each other. And I'm sure that you out many a times, but I think like this is a time that people get to really hear your dissertation journey story. And I just know it's going to bless the people. I referenced you all the time while coaching and just showing people like you are a true example of what is possible throughout this dissertation journey. And so I cannot wait to dive in, but before we get too deep, tell the people who you are.

Well, first let me say, I feel like we're sisters, because we are so similar. We like the same artists. We like the same movies. We laugh at the same, like ignorant things on the internet. So I think out of like friends, I also see you as that person. I can just be my whole self with. So I, I love that. And before we get started, I want to shout out the podcast crew. Cause I was a faithful podcaster before I was even a client. And I would just talk back to you. So I like the shout out myself, cause I know I'm going to be listening. Shout out to my mama, to all the other qualms we made it. Well, y'all y'all but yeah, a little bit about B. Let's see, what about begin? Rashonda Braeden. I recently graduated from the university of Georgia and the college student affairs PhD program.

I'm a first generation college student doc student. I'm from Winston-Salem North Carolina. Guess I have degrees, but I have lived a rather hood life. You know, single parent home, all that good stuff. And I really, I really always found space for myself in school. Always just been a nerd love reading. And so getting into the adapt program was stuff that I always dreamed about doing, but you know, once you work and you know, life gets in the way, you kind of put your dreams on the back burner. And it was in 2018 that I just, I went forward. I had applied to several programs. Didn't get into like my very top, one of the institution I was working at. But the, some of the faculty at Georgia were like, come down here. We want you here. And I was like, I'm not moving to Athens, Georgia, rural Georgia I'll pass.

And it just worked out. They, they made sure I didn't have to take the GRE again. They made sure I got in. They made sure I had an assistant. And so I really felt embraced and loved and supported because I had come to Athens, Georgia as a master student. So I had that rapport already built. And so it was really a no brainer. My partner, he was like, yeah, let's go, let's move. And I was like, wait a minute. We got this house and these friends and these things, and we moved down to Athens, Georgia. I started it out for Graham. You know, classes are fun. I'm an overachiever as I feel Lacey knows perfectionism is my, was my jam. Cause I'm better each day. But so classes were fine. You know, having someone tell you what to do. But it wasn't until I got in the dissertation process that I felt lost.

And I got in the dissertation process around March of 2020, and I was tired from preliminary exams. I got in the process and I was just like exhausted. And so from March until may, I think I told you this, I didn't do anything. Like I would sit down at my computer and nothing would come out. And people were like, oh, are you working on your dissertation? I'd be like, yeah, literally nothing that that was happening. And so I had been following you for a while, just from afar, getting emails, signing up for literature review classes. But the first gen low income person in me was like you can't afford to have a coach. So I never committed. I never did. But when it got to may of 2020, I was like, girl, you gotta do something. So I hit you up. I think I sent you an email.

And I was like, oh, we gotta meet. And I was, I didn't care what you said on that zoom call, but whatever it was, I was signing up that day. I had already talked to Melvin about it, sorry, Melvin is my partner. I was like, shout out to babe. Cause before our call, I was like, I'm about to talk to them, our visit, whatever she says, I need to pay, we're going to pay today and we're going to get this dissertation done. And he's like, okay, let's do it. So that's essentially how I got started. So that's a little bit about me so much more active, always share, but yeah, that's it for now.

And I like, cause I mean, I know we knew of each other and I don't think we actually had a moment to just like talk in person until March, 2020. But like, you know, Rola come right to the weaponized, to the things, open to things. And I know you were a part of right away the early days, but I don't know what it was that we'd never had a conversation and I went out and then you came into the program. So we didn't really overlap, but we have all the mutual friends. And we went to conference right before the rural shut down we did. And I think that was like really our first time to really like connect and realize like, oh, this, this, this, this, we suppose this is supposed to be a thing like, right. And I mean, I don't talk about it a lot, which I probably should, but it just always feeling like this out of place, especially when I came to Georgia.

And it was the first time I would say it really became clear my class and how I grew up and then like, oh no, I'm from the hood. I'm over here. Pretending like, I wasn't, I'm not that I was doing it on purpose either, but like school was always right. My escape from home life. And so I just never took that part of me or at least consciously took that part with me. And so going to Athens, going to Georgia and being like, oh, oh, I didn't understand. But I, I do not fit here. I don't, I don't get it. I don't get what people are saying. And they're like meeting you. I'm like, okay. So it's not just me. It's not just me. I just think different. I don't, I mean, you know, just life experiences and I can fully articulate it with words, but I would just say right, university of Georgia flagship, it is right for all intents and purposes. It is the school of Georgia. And there's a, there's a type of student that goes there and that, I just, just can't relate to from family structure, from money from just customs and norms. And I just remember feeling like I was in a whole different world, so

Yeah. Yeah. And there's just people with all these words and I'm just like, how do we buy of all these words? Where did they get them? How do I get them? And so it is really difficult coming into that space of an elite institution in the south where respectability reign Supreme in intellect is on another level. And then knowing that you have all that, but you can also speak to Pookie and Ray Ray, and you know, you can do, you can do both balance, right. But it's hard to have those that balance in that space. So I totally can relate

Into like connecting with you. Just help me to, in many ways, like reconcile those parts of me and like to see myself reflected in you and being like, oh, it's we could do this. It's like we could navigate the whole thing. And I don't think I gave much attention to that. And it was just like, in moments, it's not like we like sat down and like had a whole conference, but it was just like little moments, little like, I don't know, like maybe it's like a quote from a movie or so think of something like no one else in the room gets it, but the two of us laughing every

Time you say an analogy, I like sit up. Cause I know it's going to be something that like only I know

You're

Like, okay, I'll follow me. And I'm like, oh yeah, I'm definitely following. But it's always like a movie reference or TV or just some hood reference that I'm like, that is my life. Like it's my bed and my window. Haven't you go? Absolutely. I

Love it. So it gets some heart tired. Cause I just want to also say this. So our doc program is theoretically set up in that you do two years of course work and then a year for your dissertation or for those of you who are in the process, you know, that year, but dissertation as a whole lie, less lies. Like what like you were like, you were on track, like moving through the system and in a way that it was designed, which meant that you were tired. Right? Like there's, that's a lot like sure. A person can do it, but it's like at what cost and you're moving through it, right. Like overachiever, like you said, and get March and being like, okay, I'm sure it's probably started off as like, I'm gonna take a break and we got to conferences and in April and may like, no, this is more than a break.

It's so talking to Melvin being like, I'm going to do it. Cause I remember earlier in the like January of February, you were like, yeah, nah, I can't, that's too much. I'm not doing that. And so to shift, to like Melbourne, we're doing this, I'm not asking you what you want you to like speak to that decision more, especially from the lens of you have an amazing, incredible advisor, like the advisor of advisors someone who is supportive, someone who cares, someone who is on like, I mean the whole celebrity out here and the expectations even forces you to rise as a student, as an advisee. And so one of the biggest things that people will say is why would I get a coach when I have my advisor? Like, and especially when our is good. So as someone who has an amazing relationship with your advisor and right who, and he is incredibly supportive to talk through more about how did you get to the place of I'm going to sign up?

Yeah. That was a good question. I think in January, February, I was like, yes, I do have an amazing advisor. I can do this myself. I do have all of these great resources and friends that I can call to get me through. And so when I think I was on the literature review call, I was like, I'm good now. And my advisor is great. He helped me out so much. We are not just colleagues. Now. We are also friends. And now I understand that your advisor can't be everything that you need an advisor to be to you. Like he could help me make edits and he could give me feedback, but I needed someone that I could curse with. I needed a community that I could literally let my hair down and keep it a thousand with. I needed people that I could talk out loud, my plan for methodology or my plan for data collection before I went to my advisor.

So I needed that sounding board before I went to this person because I respected his work, but I wanted to have my stuff together before I went to him. And so you all became that for me. Also around that time in March, my advisor announced that he was leaving and he told me first, he didn't tell a lot of people, but he told me he was like, I'm leaving. I'm going to a different institution and I'm going to keep you on, but I'm not going to be able to be hands-on with you. You're going to have to do this. And if you want to do this, I'll keep you as my advisee. But I'm just being clear about it's going to, it's going to take work because he was moving thousands of miles away. And so in the midst of all of that, I realized now that that was one of the reasons why I kind of shut down in March because it was an instant where I was like, man, this person who was my support system is leaving.

And I really had to grieve that. And my advisor's a black man and for me it was another instance that a black man was leaving. And for me, my bit, you know, I have a lot of I've been working through a lot of issues around abandonment from my own dad. And so my advisor leaving mirrored, you know, refilling the abandoned by my dad. And it was just a lot things that I had to sit through, but I wasn't able to put that together right then. And so I started, I started going to therapy in March and that's when she pool that out. But she also asked me, my therapist also asked me like, who else can help you? And I remember naming you and your program. And my therapist is like, yeah, people get coaches all the time for things.

She's like, if you need help with anything, a coach is supposed to help you. And I was like, I hear you saying that people, but do you mean black people? Do you mean people? Because I had never heard of anybody like truly having a coach. She was like, absolutely. She started naming all the ways that she's heard about dissertation coaches and coaches and other areas. And I felt like in some ways that gave me permission to go ahead and do it. So I think it was, you know, me wanting to like move forward, also having a supportive partner to be like, yup, you can do it also having a faculty member. And it's like, I got your back, but I'm going to be a little ways back. And it was my therapist being like, girl, if you don't get yourself some help, like you're not meant to do this alone. And I was like, oh, I can do that. So all of that came together to fortify a decision that was already percolating. And then that's when I was just like, Hey, my vet, when can we meet? Because I would love to get, like, I would love for us to just chat. And I knew that from the chat, I would be like, where do I sign? How much is it?

Yeah. Well first, you know, again, shout out to Melvin for obvious being like, yep, sure. Let's do it. Just beginning all the things. Yeah. Too, like that is very profound to make that connection between the advisor and your father endless also shout out to Dr. Doris means who is Fran chair, colleagues showing Nair. And I would love to have him on the podcast just to talk about boundaries. I have never like seen someone set a boundary so quick and reinforce it with no problem. Like it is magic to watch. Yeah, that is right. Like, I, I would say like similar experience for me, the doc program doesn't represent like all it was challenging because it was so rigorous. Right. I'm a career student. Like I could do that in my sleep. It was all the light stuff. And also working through my own abandonment issues with my parents and going like, really, I feel like it was, I had done therapy before, but it was like the first time I really knew to show up in therapy, to be honest, to like the hard things, not to just go every week and just talk at the person.

So for that to happen at the beginning of your dissertation journey, I had a way to start. Yeah.

Yeah. And it definitely was needed and you're right. Doing therapy at the same time as the dissertation. It forced me to be honest about all the things that happened to me before dissertation. So my therapist is able to bring up different concerns that I had connected to childhood that I was just like, girl, how do you even remember that? She's like, doesn't this remind you of the fifth grade when no one called on you for blah, blah, blah. And I would be like, yeah, it does. I just wanted to play volleyball with the people in this journal. Nitpicking me is exactly how I feel, you know, so, but you're right. It was the first time I was like super candid. And I think that that program also, because you're constantly reflecting, it just, it allowed me to do more of my own work, which was so important for me. I mean that could be a whole episode in itself. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm still doing the work. Hmm.

Let's see. Oh yeah. There's more to come. Which is kind of like, so we have that call and what's funny for me, like what I remember the most about it was being like, I'm going to hire her. Like, I don't know what she, I said it casually in March, but I don't think she knows that when I say something like that, like I have, I it's decided in my head, but I also knew that it was important for you to pay. Even though I knew I was going to turn around and give the money right back to you, I knew it was important to pay. And I tell people this all the time, like, because people are like, oh, I can't afford it. Or like, you, like, you should give this away for free. And it's like, I did not give a lot of information away for free and how we are socialized or socialized to show up for things that we pay for, especially when we perceive it to be a significant amount of money, the energy and how you show up is different. And so I don't know if that was salient for you at all in that conversation, but I just remember being like, yep, we got to work together. We got to meet weekly for this coaching and where these four weeks. And I'm gonna give her the money right back when

I don't remember. I don't remember us having that conversation. I remember just being an emotional wreck and you allowing me to just cry. And then you just asking me these perfect questions about how let's was it. And like I said before, it was like, you were looking in my window, like spousal on I'm sitting at the desk, but I'm not writing. I am. I'm saying I'm going to work all these hours and then I'm not showing up. I'm chilling hard. And so you were just able to really see me in that moment. So I don't remember anything you said, I just remember crying a lot. And then being like, where do I sign up?

That's all I remember. But the money, the money it did, it did, it does pay to put skin in the game because me paying that money meant that I was making a commitment. And for me and my family, when I make a commitment, it's not just about me. It's about, you know, my partner giving up that money too. It's like, we're in this together. Like we're going to do this thing. And so making that commitment and putting a date on it, just, it made it, it made things real. Like, you know how people don't, sometimes people don't believe in like, you know, getting married and having a license. You know, you definitely don't have to do that, but there is something special about having that license and being committed in that way. That is unique. It's special. It's a commitment that everyone knows about. Right. And you don't have to do it, but there's something sweet about it. And so that's what I think about when I paid those funds and I didn't do it for grudgingly. I just, at that point, when you get to that point, you're just like, I don't care how much it costs. I just want support

That mom I've had that moment. Many of times, like, just take the money. I don't even, don't even just here's the card don't even tell me. I'm just ready to start. I need to figure this out. So could you talk a little bit about what was your experience like coaching? Because I feel like there's a lot of mystery. People don't quite understand what is coaching. And like, I got my therapist, I got my advisor, like, where do you fit in? And just in general, how has the experience of coaching? And, and I guess the second part is like anything particular to me, people like to say all types of things about my coaching. I just feel like I'm really nice and just helpful.

Well, I want to say, first of all, you know, you can't have an adviser and a therapist and a coach. And to me, I think of that as a squat, right? You need your squat. If you're about to play a game, you need people who are going to play their different roles. And for me as a coach, you were very much that person that was listening to what I was saying. And you were also speaking those things back to me and you would speak those things back to me in a way that I could really understand. So you will be like, I hear you saying you need to work a thousand hours, but do you really need to work a thousand hours RO and I will be like, but if I don't and then you'd be like, okay, well, what if you don't well, the world's shut down. And then how many ways have you overextended yourself in this program as a black woman as this, as that? And I would just be like, my bed is reading to me for Phil right now. Yeah. Hold on. Let me get up. These Dante did something and now yeah, blowing up my

Slack or your WhatsApp,

Or can you hear my text messages going on? Okay, good. I'll keep going. Then text messages are going crazy for Dante. But back to the story, like you were always the person that could just turn the mirror around for me to look at myself and for me to hear myself. And not only would you repeat things back to me, but she would also say, but is that true? RO do you have to do those things? So you would interrupt whatever. I had been telling myself for years telling myself, I have to show up for everybody telling myself I couldn't take breaks, telling myself that I didn't deserve to risk telling myself that I didn't even deserve to be in a doc program. And I don't know what it is about looking at you. Another black woman who is one. So similar to me who went through a similar process recently, but you will always hit the nail on the head. Exactly. Like you would just say, do you feel like you can't rest because everyone's dependent on you? Do you feel like you can't risk because you've always been a caregiver? Do you feel like you can't risk because to fit in, in the academy means this constant grind, like you would always just name it. Exactly. And then you would force me to answer. And I would, I liked having the answers, but sometimes I wouldn't have the answer and you would let me process, but you know, just sit in the of it all.

And I needed a lot of that interruption because to be honest, most of it, there's not a lot of spaces that I can be super candid about how I was feeling, you know, with, with my advisor, even though he's cool. He's, he's a part of the academy I want to be a part of. So if I tell him some stuff, he might be like in my mind back then I thought he might be like, oh, well, she, we did not need to pick her for this. Or she cannot be in the academy after this because she has these questions. That's not true. I know now that it wasn't true, but back then, I didn't think I could, I could have real conversations with my advisor. I thought I had to have all the answers with my therapy is, you know, she could do some of the same and pulling things apart, but we had to do some, some real self work.

And so with you, you were the one person that I could talk about this process with and you 1000%, got it. Also understanding my identities. You got it. And you provided me with things to do next, next steps, like tangible things to do. And so I always left our conversations. One feeling like I was walking on clouds after our conversation, because I was able to dump and get a lot of things out. But two I always left with, okay, next steps I need to do is work on my top three. Next steps I need to do is making sure I have an office space that is catered to who, or just working on dissertation. Next steps is to schedule a trip so I can get away, get away from this place and have some fun and live my best life. But my boot or next steps hire someone to clean this house. Cause I don't have the energy. You know? So for me, you were, you were, you were helpful in those ways.

I love it. And it's like, I mean, even in that lane, getting someone to clean the trip, right. Have the office space, remember that conversation, right? Like it would've been really easy for you and you probably did go through some of this of like, I can't do that. I can't afford that somebody to kind of click, like I am, I like, I couldn't do all those things.

Listen, I did. I believe that I couldn't do all those things that I would say that to you sometime. It was like my big girl, no, I ain't got no money for that. And you will be like, but couldn't you figure it out and don't you deserve it. And so I would be like, yes, I do deserve it. And maybe, you know, this month, instead of doing this, you know, or going here or getting Starbucks every week, maybe I could put that money towards getting someone to clean the house. But you did, you, you snatched my edges every time, but it was in such a loving way that I would just leave the call and like, let me go put my inches back. My vet loves me. So I'm just going to glue these interests back on and go on about my day. So it was, it was a loving snatch that got me together and I needed it.

Yes. Oh, I love it. So one moment in particular I'm thinking about is we were looking at your proposal and I remember saying something like, this is fine. Right? It'll pass. It's not you, but it's fine. And you like, yeah. I'm like, how about we were just riding over, you looked at me like, I'm sorry, what? No, I'm not playing it over. I was like, yeah, let's just write it all over. Like, don't you want to do research just in alignment with how you see the world and who you are. And you know, and if you could do it before this month is over, that'd be great. What was that like for you?

It was rough because I think it was only like two or three weeks before the month was over. And I was just like, this coach is out of her mind because in that moment I'm like, we're not friends right now that you're a coach. You don't, you don't care about me. You want me to do this? And two weeks, I don't have time to do this. But what I also heard you say was your work is good. You can do it two weeks, a nut into a player. Like basically, like I heard you say that you didn't say that, but it's like, oh yeah, bro, you got it. So then it was also confidence, a confidence boost that I needed. And I was rolling my eyes because I didn't want to do the work. I mean, there are so many times that we put ourselves in work situations or in PhD programs or in anything.

And then we get mad when people will ask us to do the work and it's like, oh, but this is what you signed up for. So I was just, I rolled my eyes because I didn't want to do the work, but I felt that you believed in me and I started to believe in myself. And so I think I'd walk away from that meeting, rolling my eyes. But then I opened my computer cause I already had a structure in place. Right. So I didn't need a structure. I just needed words. And I was able to reformat chapter two. And for those listening, y'all know, chapter two is always on some. It's a rabbit hole. You can get lost there. But I really wanted to tell a story in chapter two, particularly around black people in relation to predominantly white institutions and just how we have been traumatized by the institutions that we're in proximity with.

And so I really wanted to tell a collective story in that one chapter through the literature. And so what you did was give me permission to revisit that. And I was able to set the, set the stage and set an argument for the rest of my dissertation. And I was able to, it done in two weeks. And so many members of my committee were like this literature review section is amazing. It's well done. It's, it's rich, but also succinct. So it's not a million pages, but you can tell you really went in that literature. And I didn't just use journal articles. I use books, I use relevant newspaper articles. Yeah. So this literature review that I hated then became a chapter that I love and a chapter that's really needed when in talking about black people in this way, because it doesn't exist.

So at some point I'll even probably published that just because it is so beautiful. But I think hearing you say that early on gave me permission to make it better and it didn't take as long as I thought it would, but I was rolling my eyes because I'm like, man, we're supposed to be moving forward, not backwards. Like you're asked to be to go back and you had to break this down for me. You basic, you were the one that taught me that each one of your chapters is constantly in development. They constantly changed. No one had taught me that. So even after I finished data collection, when I had to go back to literature review to add some pieces or back to chapter one, to add some pieces, I didn't have an attitude because I wanted to be, I wanted it to be a succinct document through and through, you know, and these, these chapters, even though you think they're done, they're never done. They're always works in progress. So I think you were the one to help me understand that early on, which helped to make a very strong dissertation.

I was just coaching about that. And some of self-love call last week about we were talking about emotions and how to feel emotions. And then it went through a conversation about like, yeah, you're writing chapter two in your area stated why don't you just be irritated and still show up and write like, just because you're irritated doesn't mean anything has gone wrong. Like that is the writing process. And then they're like, I just want to be done. I just want to write it and be done and never look at it again. And I'm like, oh, that's not, no, that's not how this works. It's not right. Writing is an art form and right. Like, I'm sure you could probably go to your dissertation now and still be like, I can change this. I can tweak this. Like absolutely just make a decision to be done. But writing is really never done. And if people can like wrap their heads around that and accept it, the suffering and irritation you feel will disappear.

Yeah. Yeah. And you taught me that. I think I was telling you that I was irritated and you're asking me why. And I realized I was irritated because of all the harm that had been done to black folks. And so what I did was instead of being irritated, what I was really experiencing was sadness and anger. And so then I was able to use that sadness and anger to propel me, to write the rest of those sections. So those sections where he, because I was and I needed receipts to back it up. So it was just like, this is bull, this is bull receipt receipt, and this is bull and this is why this work matters. And so I was able to package it up pretty and offer it up to my committee in that proposal stage. And they were like, oh, well done.

Well done. Yes. And did that right. Were British direction in a program. And you will finish chapters in four weeks. And I know people like that, it's not possible. Yes. It is like countless examples. And you are an example to like you do that, you defend it and then you start data collection. And so if you could share more about your methodology and what that required, right. Cause it wasn't just the data collect. Like I was just gonna do some cute interviews. No like the, the overall system of that, all the people that were involved. If you could talk through that and, and just more about like your thought process going into it.

Yeah. So I was doing community work in my dissertation. I was looking at how I was looking at the way black communities experience their local, predominantly white historically white institution. And since I was working with communities, I want a community folks to be integral to the work. I want to black folk to influence the work like, like no other. And so, because I was not a part of the town that I live in, meaning like I wasn't from there, I needed people who were from there to inform our work. So I used participatory action research as my methodology. And that action, that methodology asks you to bring community folks to your process from beginning to end. And so, as you're creating, you know, your, your questions and your protocols, it asks you to place those people in positions of power to be able to say, no, we don't like that.

Or yes, we love this. Let's do that. And so that's how I framed my dissertation. I actually had a research team of two black undergraduate students from the university of Georgia. And they were amazing contributors to the team. They were honest if they didn't like something, they would tell me if I didn't say something right. They would laugh at me and tell me to change it. But they were truthful and important to the work. And they helped come up with the questions and they help do they help to have interviews with other community folks. So we interview leaders in our town. We interviewed families, black families in our town, and we interviewed other black students in our town. And I think having the black undergraduate co-researchers there made everything rich. People were able to talk about stories and go deep into history that they probably wouldn't have shared with just me.

But because I had other Athens locals on our team, folks felt real comfortable and they made, they made the work really, really rich. So my vet knows, I was really worried about having to put all of these pieces together because I had never seen this done before for a dissertation. I thought it would take forever. I didn't know how I was going to pay these, these folks for their time, because a part of par participatory action research, it's also compensating people for their labor. And so my vet really helped me figure things out when I was like, how am I going to pay these people? And she'll be like, well, how about you pay them this? And you can get this money maybe from a grant or a fellowship and you can set this up so they can help you out in these ways.

And she would just have so many ideas for how I could move forward. Of course, nothing I had to do, but things that I could look into to help me. And that really, really changed the game because I didn't think I could do it, especially not during a pandemic, but you were the one to tell me, like, we've all had to pivot. What if you pivoted and did zoom interviews and still allowed your co-researchers to meet up with participants via zoom? What if you still built relationships with your co-researchers by mailing them care packages or sending them food in the mail or sending them food, like gift cards so they can eat and feel like nourish physically during this process. And I would just be like, and I would just type away like, and so having you there for ideas and not just you, but also my our community, the Rasha de-mic sky, having folks there to also bounce ideas off of was, was very helpful because you can write the methodology, but when it comes time to do actually collect data is definitely a mind book because you're like, wait, I actually have to do this, but you were the one like, yep.

Do you IRB? I know Naya was a one-liner. Yup. Go ahead and do IRB and collect your data and keep it moving. And I had a plan for how long I wanted to do things and when to move on and we collected data from September to November of 2020 from all of these great people, great stories, black families, black leaders, black students. And I was able to write all of that up in November and December.

And I tell people all the time I'm like we met, was it the end of June? It was June the beginning of June. Right. And then the whole rewriting defending, collecting data, writing up four for five before December, it was over. And what I thought, my favorite part about that is yeah, every time I wouldn't be like, bro, what you doing? Oh, just watching TV. You know, I just decided I was going to rewatch all the Grey's anatomy, which does not have to be day trips somewhere. And I just wouldn't be so tickled because I'm like, she's just living her best life. And yet just moving through this process because I feel like a lot of people have this misconception of if you're going to do it, what they would probably deem as like a very short turnaround that that means you have to do all work. You can't do, you got to cut off. Everything goes like, it's not, it's not possible to move that fast. Especially with these many moving parts. It's not possible to move that fast and have a life. And I was just amazed. Intercalate just watching you just over here, just taking care of yourself, enjoying life, and then like how, like how, how just, how did you do?

Yeah. So the, the research team, they were great. They were able to identify folks that we needed to interview. And when I reached out to folks to interview, they were like, yes, absolutely. And because you all helped me package up my protocol and packaged up you know, my, how I wanted to do each zoom interview, I could do them from anywhere, anywhere I could do zoom interviews and I could have the co-researchers join me and we'd have a rich conversation. And I may be in Athens. I may not be. And so I was able to structure my time in a way that I had all this room to do other things. So yes, I finished all of Grey's anatomy. Yes. If you follow me on Instagram, I made all the pancakes. I figured out how to get these special attachments on my on my air to make rotisserie chickens, all the random things. And I was in data collection. So it was lots of fun. We had a good time and I got a chance to spend a lot of time with the co-researchers as well. Even virtually we spent a weekly, we checked in on each other. We love each other. Well, we gave each other what we needed and I just modeled it after the cure I was receiving and cost dollars. That's what I did.

Yes. Yeah. She got so good at boundaries. So if you don't know, like RO

Is the director, cos scholars really is here to just tell me no, but all my 50 million, I find all the time, he helps keep me in check. But he like got so strong with the battery. They're like, oh no, you can't. Oh, okay. Hello bro. Like, no, I am away. Well, you know, she is filing the coaching when we go find something else to do. And honestly, I started doing what you do. I started front-loading most of my week and doing all of my work really Monday through Thursday. And then that, that really gave me Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to chill. And even on Monday, I would ease into my week. I wouldn't pack a whole lot of stuff up there because I hate Mondays. And so I would ease into my Monday and then Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday was when I really got it. And then I would rest because my body needs to rest and recover. Especially when you're talking about hard topics, hard subjects, things that really resonate with your, your spirit and your, your mental and your physical, your body needs to regroup. And especially if you're working with people, if you don't want to have an attitude, if you don't want to be nasty, you gotta let your body reset it. And that really helped me.

It was beautiful. And I, I just remember being on a zoom call for your defense and just, just tears. I was like, this is the best ending to this journey ever. So it's talking about your defense experience and yeah, just that process.

So I've always been a shy person for most of my life. And in talking with my vet about that, she would always challenge me to be like, okay in what part are you really shy or are you just hiding? I would hear that from her a lot. Like, are you really Sharrow or are you just hiding? Cause you don't seem shy to me. Like nothing about you is slack. And so when it came to my dissertation defense at first, I didn't want anybody there. I was like, I'm a private person. I'm kind of shy. Like I don't want anybody there. Then I heard my pet being like, are you shy? Are you hiding? Because this is great work and people need to see it. And so for my dissertation defense, I really wanted that village that helped me get through to be a part of it.

I wanted those folks that we interviewed. I wanted the co-researchers. I wanted my call scholar spam. I wanted my program family, my, my, my real family. I wanted everybody who helped me to get there, to be in this space to see that everything that they poured into me, it helped to grow me. And so I wanted people to be a part of that. And, and because I was doing work with community, I thought it would be irresponsible not to include my own community in the work. So again, going on with my, with my paradigm, I decided to invite folks and it ended up being like 70 to a hundred people. And I was so overwhelmed when I, when I turned the zoom on and I saw all of these people, but then I took a breath and I saw that everyone there genuinely loved me and cared about me.

And I thought about how amazing the work was, how amazing the findings were in terms of you know, we were able to put them together as a theatrical performance that really got to the meat of what was happening from these black communities and the stories they told were beautifully horrifying. And the play really captured that. And so in my defense, I remember right before we started, I went ahead and told my advisor, listen, I know I got 15 minutes, but I'm going to take more time. Okay. I didn't even ask. I was like, listen, I got something to say, so this is what this is about to look like. And I heard you in my head at that point too. Cause I was like, this is the moment where you you're a doctor because you're telling your chair, what's it? What is it about to be?

And so I just took probably about 30 and 40 to 45 minutes to just share what I learned. And I was able to hype up the co-researchers hype up the community that we engage with and to feel the love across the room, even from participants in the chat box, they were like, thank you for doing this work. Thank you for contributing to this community more than you're taking away from it. Oh my gosh. And to see the co-researchers and to see my call scholars, family, my real family, everybody, it was just a tremendous culminating event. And people talk about it being, you know, the defense being, you know, anti-climactic or, or lackluster. I don't think mine was, but I don't think mine was because I intentionally prepared it to be amazing. So I was so full after that. And I'm an introvert. So Jillian Martin, who was on the podcast way back in the day when she was getting her hair done, I left it there all the time.

But Julian Martin, she told me to like have a plan in place for after the defense. And I thought about my VA. I was like, well, where would my vet say, introverts go. And I rented this nice luxury hotel in Asheville, North Carolina for three days. And after defense, I felt like the celebrity, cause I got all the texts and the calls and I got him, I got in our car and my partner drove me to Wilmington north, not Wilmington, Asheville, North Carolina in this luxury hotel in the middle of COVID. So we were, you know, messed up. But I just sat in that hotel room, ordering room service, living my best life, taking pictures with my with my Tam on my doctorial Tam and just soaking it all in champagne desserts.

Nope. It in the background, but like, I'm just so happy to be here.

He just let me be, he didn't need me. Let me interrupt all the best games. He would just every few hours you hungry.

Yes. Thank you for knowing what's important. He

Did ask me a lot. Yeah. Questions or nothing. He was just made sure I had everything I needed and it was so beautiful. So the whole month of April, I just really was able to bask and everything that I had experienced, the joy of it all. The month of may, the world opened back up a little bit, my friends hold a surprise party for me. So then they were able to pour in more words of affirmation, which is my love language. But I really just felt like I was doctor from the defense day. What felt like it before then? I felt like I was doctor when I was putting together all those findings and making meaning, but from defense, they on there was just like, I just felt like there was nothing that I couldn't do.

And I think it's all, all because of the process that I was listening to myself learning from you all taking risks, finding joy in the littlest things, the smallest things, whether it was working on edits or sending off a chapter or eating something really yummy that day, or just looking forward to doing absolutely no work and figuring out what the heck gray was doing on Grey's anatomy. Those things just really, really made my day. And it was, it was an incredible journey. And you're the one that taught me that, you know, this, this process doesn't to be tragic, you don't have to feel downtrodden. You don't have to, you know, just feel like you've been run over by three trucks.

Yeah. You can feel joyful. And I felt, I felt joyful in April may. I'm still joyful in talking about it. And so many people reached out to me like, you know, I don't recommend that people do doc programs because I think it's tied to, you know, a lot of other feelings and emotions, but for people who are in it, I'm like, you can do it. You can finish, you can succeed. And then you can go on and do whatever you want to do. Whether it be really academy or be an entrepreneur or, you know, work at trader Joe's, like Marvin wanted to do. Or just, I said, my dream job is to just sit on the porch with my PhD,

Because, well, let me just say this. Excuse me, bending the defense. It was like, we came to watch you. It was a key note. It wasn't a defense. Like we were all there. Just like even the committee. Yeah. Like I've never been a defense. We all like, no, this is a keynote. We know. And even when it came to questions, it was like, no, we just want to hear more of your brilliance. And she came from an energy of like, nobody, we just were in it and for the committee to go do a fake deliberation and then come back. I say fake, because everybody knew on that call. Like this is a rap. And for, you know him to come back and say, congratulations, doctor and approve it, no edits. Like this was just the best thing I've ever read. Like if for all the committee members to say that like was not going to stop for, but I'm a step forward. Like that, that to me was like cherry on top of you could do this process. You can have joy, you can take care of yourself and do amazing. Incredible.

Yeah. And you know, I was nervous about Dr. Dealer too. We talked about it, that their Cynthia dealer is the greatest of all greatest black women scholars. She's my she's everything. Right. I aspire to be like her every day of the week, but I was nervous about her reading my work. My vet knew that I wanted it to be perfect because if anybody had questions, she was going to have questions. And she actually called me. She probably wasn't supposed to do that. And I probably am not supposed to say this. She called me the day before. And when I answered the phone, I was nervous as tale, but her first word was, this is good. And y'all when I tell ya, I cried so hard because for her to see that say that, see me. Boom. Yeah. Yeah. So that really just helped me walk into that defense. Like literally can't nobody tell me [inaudible] oh, so that also helped. But I had been, I had been working up to that this whole process. Right. And I didn't even see it.

And I mean, we're running out of time, but like, even just that, like using someone's work who's on your committee. I know a lot of people can get in their head and for that person to call you and be like, that's good. Yes.

Yeah. I just cried. She just laughed at me. She was like, I just wanted to put your mind at ease. I'll see you tomorrow.

I mean, to be a journey to talk to you, like just, just I'm just here to listen.

Yeah. Every time I'm with her

Work was so instrumental and I didn't get a chance to have, like, I don't think we'd ever spoken, but I'm like if I just go sit outside her office,

When I went to Ghana with her, literally every step she took, I was the next person behind her. She went to the right ad, go to the right. She'd say one thing, that'd be like, what'd you say?

Right in darkness and feminist, systemology like, I changed my whole dissertation experience, but that's a whole nother conversation. So any words of advice for someone who's unoffensive about joining cross scholars, getting a coach like they want to, but I look like, Hmm, they're not sure anymore.

Yeah. I, I mean, I really would just say try it. You know, we try a lot of things, you know, we want to try a restaurant. If we want to try an app, if we want to try dating someone, we give them a chance, but we don't always, you know, try things that we need and that we deserve. And so I say to all the people out there who are just thinking like, should I do this or those people who are like, I need a sign. This is your sign that you deserve to have something for you where you can get this done, or you can feel whole, or you could feel happy and feel free. And then you can move on and do anything else that you want to do. So this is your sign, you deserve it. And it doesn't have to be a raggedy dusty process. It could be one where you have tons of support, tons of care, tons of just happiness and gratitude for the process itself. So I encourage anybody to do it. And if you just have random questions, reach out to me, people reach out to me all the time. Like, so this coaching I'm like, absolutely do it. Sign up. Here's the literature review quarter's happening or here's this happening to it? Come join us. Be a part of our community because this is one of the best places bar none. Yes.

And if you love Dr. Breeden's energy, you definitely need to be in the group. Cause you get to be in that energy. But if folks do what I'll follow up with you, it would be the best way for them to do so.

So I'm that person that changed all my handles on social media once I became doctor. Cause I'm just belligerent like that. And Instagram is my favorite. So if you want to just send me a message or you know, glimpse into my life Dr. Underscore breeding, B R E E D E N is my Instagram. And I think Dr. Braeden is also my Twitter name. So feel free to send me a DM I'm out weird or creepy I'll respond and we can connect.

Yes. And we will put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your story or brilliance with us today. Love having you.

Thank you for having me now. I'm about to go eat some barbecue.