Episode 122: What It Takes To Become Doctor With Dr. Joan Collier

In this episode, Marvette chats with her good friend and colleague Dr. Joan Collier about what it takes to become to finish your program and become a Doctor.

Dr. Collier explains 3 ways that you can own your identity as a scholar.

Follow along on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/marvettelacy/

TRANSCRIPT:

It's fancy, right? Hello, everyone. It's been a long time since I record it alive podcast, probably about a good four to six weeks. And what better way than to kick this off? I don't know, homey and like friend and sister and I just, I don't even have words. Right? I don't have words. I want to say this before we get started so we can set the context. I needed a break cause I needed some time to think about the business. So there's this thing of working in the business and working on the business and I needed time to work on the business and thinking about the direction in which I wanted to go. As y'all know, I've said many times I am obsessed with how to help people get to the finish line, but not just for the sake of getting to the finish line, but getting there with all the joy and peace that one could muster throughout this process.

And I don't think the dissertation has to wrap you have any of those things. I don't think you have to be unwell in order to get to the finish line. And I would say in my reflection, I haven't been as clear as I want to be about that process. And I, I want to be more transparent and more honest and more thoughtful about really what's required. And I know many of you who are probably in that process, if you're thinking a lot about, you just want to know the, how, how to write it, how to set this chapter up. But when I tell you that's only 10 to 20% of the process. I mean that. And so when I was thinking about what is the best way to really talk about what is the other 80% the process of becoming a doctor? The perfect person I thought of was Dr.

Joan Collier, someone we worked together and becoming doctor, and we had a lot of long night conversations. A lot of just feeling our way through it. Particularly if you read the email before it listened to this episode and you'd know essentially two months collect data, analyze it and write up a whole dissertation to turn it in. In order to meet the may graduation requirements set forth by our communities and chairs. That means not only do we have to figure out the how of writing a dissertation, we also had to come into the identity of becoming a doctor, because that is how you go into your final defense and pass it. They're not looking for, you know, every piece of literature, but they want to, they, they follow your lead. How are you walking into that room? How are you defending your argument? How are you explaining your, and that doesn't technicalities that comes with an energy. So that is an internal episode, but Dr. Khalia, you want to tell the people a little bit about you. I heard you a couple of weeks ago, since you were featured on the episode, they are call, they hurt your cough. God.

I feel like the girlfriend thinks tack so a little bit about me. I'm John Collier. I am a higher ed practitioner of sorts. What is it about me that Lac and I did our schooling together at the university of the Georgia. I live in New Jersey, but I'm a Georgia girl at heart, always and forever. And yeah, she, her pronouns, I'm an ice cream kind of sewer, a Godiva goddess. I love all things beach in the summer and mountains in the winter. I'm a kinfolk coordinator. I am an extroverts who is people centered and I love history. I love histories. I love complexities. I think history enriches what we know. I am just just, I don't, I think I'm pretty dope. So that's me. Research wise qualitative scholar, critical qualitative scholar black feminism.

I've heard now black fem crits. I'm my desk. You, whatever works as long as we talk about the same things. All right, cool. That's what's up. And so I teach at a couple of different schools, but I'm primarily an administrator right now. And then I am faculty and residents for team Lacy. And so I'm glad to be here tonight. And so, or today, whatever time you're listening, that's what I'm here for. And so when you talked about what did, what, what does it mean to own your identity as a scholar? I was like, Ooh that's. So it just requires so much vulnerability because that means that at some point you got to talk about what, like how the switch happens. And for me, there were moments where I was like, oh, oh, okay. I'm I'm like a scholar scholar now. Okay, cool. Cool. And then there are other times I'm like, well maybe I just like know a couple things. And so yeah. I have my three little things to keep it together because I can get long-winded and y'all, didn't come here for that. So that's about me. Yeah. And

Dr. Collier, if you are in the membership, then, you know, and for those of you who are still hanging on the fence, listen, you're black and you're

Black because

Dr. [inaudible] Is amazing. If you need some more, she said she loves complexity. And like, you just need somebody to nerd out with, yes, you need somebody to help me.

It's so much fun. He like pulled

Things together, pieces like maybe you're not a linear thinker like us, and you have all these ideas, which you're trying to find a way to make them all flow together. Yes. That's the person you need to make sure when you're submitting things or you want to present different ideas or are you going up for defense and you want to just, you know, like, am I, is what I'm saying, landing the way I want it to land. That's your person. And if you miss out on all this, goodness, I don't, I don't know what's happening.

The brown says, bless you. I see you. Bless you.

Cause listen, but we're today. Ask Dr. Carter to come up with three, three. I dunno. I don't want to say secrets, but like three things that come to mind of, how do you own your identity as a scholar and as a doctor that will notice that there is a tone shift moving forward. Because again, like I said, I've been doing a lot of reflection, a lot of thinking for myself and really it's a good time. I can pull away to say it, but it's time if you are in my space, whether that's you listen to the podcasts every week you're inside of the membership, or even if our crafts are across, I pass cross at some point, just know that I'm holding you, like you're going to finish. The expectations are high. And then I say, I didn't have high expectations before, but I am leaning more into that. And so let's just start off with whatever your first one you would like to share. And

So I'll try to go with this for folks who don't know, I'm a non-linear thinker. And so sometimes things pop in my head. So I wrote things down and tried to make my notes. But sometimes things are knowledge is connected to an experience. And so I'll try to tie those together neatly. But my first thing I have on here is know what you know, and that includes the parameters. Amen. There, the parameter on everything that the parameter on the highway they're the, they're the parameter to see limits. And so knowing what you know means that I'm clear, or I have some clarity, right? I might not be crystal clear, but I have some clarity about what it is that I know. So that means that I'm situated in a space intellectually where I can say, oh, I have some context around that.

I have some understandings of how to situate that knowledge somewhere. And I'm clear on, I actually don't know a whole lot about that. Right. I have some context for, but I may not exactly know exactly what that is and that's okay. Right. You don't have to know everything. You do need to know what you profess to know. Right. And knowing his own philosophical sort of being that I won't go too far into, but knowing sometimes I'm an early girl and I say, you know, people claim to know black feminism, but then they have a horrible ethic. I'm glad that you can cite it. Do you live right? And so where like, w what is it that, you know, and how do you know what I think Cynthia did Alaska? How do you know? So somethings I know, because I read them somethings. I know, because when I read them, it resonated with the lived experience that I had, and I could tease out where some of the pieces were.

And then there were some things that I just know that I know, and those things, I then need to find literature within an academic context to pull together and make a claim about. Right. Okay, cool. So that's the first one is know what you know, but it's very important to include your parameters in that. Right. And one thing I put on here is continue to grow what, you know, because even when you know, a lot, we don't can't and won't know everything. One of the traps that I think new scholar, the emerging scholars fall into is the insecurity of not knowing everything. You're never gonna know everything. You're never gonna know everything. And so there's an expectation. There's a floor of things you have to know to call yourself a scholar, right. And what is considered all or right. Shifts in different areas. But you know, things, you get to say that you're a scholar of these things, right. When you have this knowledge that you can then share out about it. So that's that one find your lane kind of stick to it, but know what, you know, figure out what you don't know and B be okay with it. Right.

I, I mean, I'm like, you need to read that last part. It can like, you, you can't, they're like, you can't possibly know everything and it shows up when you go to, right? Like, so for instance, you got to write the literature review. You want to read every single article that's ever been talked about closely related, maybe in a peripheral of your topic before you write one sentence that ended, but you know, things, you know, what, you know, bright what, you know, and then that will give you brain space and the capacity to more clearly identify the parts that you need to go get those additional pieces of literature fill in the blank. But you trying to figure it out all in your head, your brain only has so much room. And so you been working on this literature review for money.

Yeah. And the other piece about that too, Lacey, is that when you're a student, a learner, right. You're in you're, you're an emerging scholar and it's that, that you're working through your dissertation, your thesis, whatever there's feedback built into it. So even if you wrote everything, there's still more feedback. You're always gonna get feedback. Always, always, always. And so write what you know, and I also want to be clear. We're not saying don't know anything. We're not saying don't do your due diligence. We're saying you can't know everything. So I'm, low-key churchy. I believe in a God who is infinite. And I believe that I am finite, right. That I add my most magnificent if fabulous can still never be God. And I'm okay with that. If I can not, right. If God is everything and knows everything, and I'm not that I can't know everything.

Right. And that's across the board, there are some things that I can know. And when there's more stuff that I need to know, I will be able to see that something's missing or there's something I hear I'm not connecting. And even that, that discernment around what's missing is a craft. It's a skill that you have to develop. I don't expect new scholars to be, you know, scholars who've been, you know, in the game for 30 years, you just learn how to do a lit review. Hey, you gone all, everything like chill out, chill out, calm down, I'll catch a breath, I'll throw it mouth light, just cool out. And so that's my first one doctor like, you know what, you know, put in your parameters, keep learning the Ooh, that was fun. Okay. The second one I have is understand how your knowledge, your, your research works with other bodies of knowledge.

So I come out of the higher ed student affairs, the student affairs, student development niche within the higher ed sort of context. I learned about human development. I learned about organizational design. I learned about, you know, conceptually, you know, critical race theory and black feminism, et cetera. And so here I come entering into a space with other people from higher ed. So we all talk the same language. Well, then I switched over and now I work with sociologists and we mean a lot of the same things and have very different language. So trying to figure out what that means and how these things connect. Right? We all work in higher red. We come from different lenses and so black feminism didn't come at a higher education. So I've already started learning how different how different disciplines understand issue, how they make sense of it, the frames that they have, the approaches they take to resolving these things and working with making connections between what you know, and other bodies of knowledge allows you to enrich what it is that, you know, I grew up with higher education.

I get higher rates, right? Students need to develop faculty to get tenure. Administrators needs, administrative budgets, need to work and student development and learning to be kind of key to that. Black feminism came in and broke the bank. Like, wait, what do you mean? There's another way to think about it. And there particular ways to think about it. If we lay a power structure over higher education, what wow, like enriching complicates it, it complicates things. And then you have to do the learning that's in the incongruence, right? Where the two knowledge bodies are more than two knowledge bodies. This interdisciplinary work get a little bit messier in a good way. It's enriching, it's complicating it. Because knowledge is Missy. Now that's me speaking as a qualitative person for the person where I think mess is where the money was. I think it's where the learning was eyes.

And it's where, it's where the agility of knowledge and learning comes from, right? It's not, it's not just this or that. It's this and that. And I learned, I think I learned how to be sharper by being able to talk in the tension, the tension of the disagreement or the small particularities of two different, you know, industries talking about something for me, that's fun. And for me, it means that I'm not pigeonholed to something. It also keeps me humble and that I understand, I don't know everything. And so that is helpful. Then when I meet people, other scholars who are bad asses in their industry or in their disciplines, their knowledge looks different from mine. I don't want to be afraid, right. That I can't keep up with them or that I can't talk as good as them or talk like them. I don't have to talk like that. I have to know my word and be able to find the connections across all work and see how my work is already informed by the work that they do and see what is that they're talking about and what can I learn about their work and their bodies of work. That helps me to make more sense of my work and then the practices that come along with it. So that's my other one. That's that's that's my second one. Does that make sense? That

Makes sense. And I'm curious to know your thoughts about this. So lately I've been having a lot of discussions with students where they will say, yes, I'm on board with you go outside of your field, be more interdisciplinarian. But they're pro they, they would say the feedback they're getting from their program, their chair, their committees

That you're doing too much, and you need to stick to humbug.

Yes. And, and then their minds are like, no, I'm a critical researcher. Like, what do you mean you're racist. That's why you don't understand what I'm saying. And so like speaking to this piece, cause you talked about like being in a space of learning too, from others and being able to like tie it back to your home base, but also like speak with them. And so I don't know. What, what thoughts do you have about those students who are like, they just don't understand me. I don't fit in.

Yeah. so my chair, I mean she knew who, some of the people I was reading were tangentially. She couldn't cite a whole bunch of them. And she knew that I had to understand it for myself. One because she didn't right. And that's no distant heart. It's not her area. It's not her lens for higher education. So she was clear that they were black feminisms and they do all these different things, but she didn't like she wasn't going to sit there and read all of it. Right. She learned a lot through my work, which is awesome, which is fabulous. And so for people who are getting the pushback, I would offer a couple of things. One of that, they may continue to push back. Right. And y'all, can't see me, but I'm kind of throwing my hands up. Like they may very well continue to push back and say, you're doing too much.

You're making this too complicated. That is not a dig, a dig to your work. It is people saying, I don't understand this. And I am unable or unwilling to do the work, to make the connection. And, or I'm not interested as your chair or committee member and actually doing this learning. So you can't do it. Right. Okay. So we have that on the table. If they're open and just willing to not get in your way, be precise about what it is that you want this to do to your work. So you want to include that you have a pretty quote unquote neutral program. They don't do power dynamics. They don't do all of that. Good, critical, nothing. They don't want to hear it. They don't wanna talk about no structure. You want to be clear in how you got to structure, being something that needs to be investigated as part of your research.

What I find sometimes when I'm reading through stuff is folks jump straight to the whole. Everything is a white supremacist, hegemonic structure of Foolery and fuckery. And I'm like, all that is true. You ain't got a single citation or you don't have, like, you have to, you you, you want to use the literature, right? There are scholars who've come before us who painstakingly wrote down for the academic record, all of these arguments. And you want to honor their work by citing them to build the argument that you need to make to have this be part of your research, be the theoretical or to announce it, how that works. You need to cite them that the colonial practice, you want a colonial institution. You're right. You're absolutely correct. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that is the context that we're in. And so before you jump to bill hooks, white supremacy, you actually have like five mil hooks.

So hard. That bees are the reason why. Right. And we have a whole history of these flat studies that just say, we don't know. It's just people, people, people, people have these problems. People do this. I'm saying this roof has these problems of flat analysis. Right? Of, of just, you know, difference neutral. Won't actually get at what I need to look at. I need to look at race and race because of these things and gender, because of these things and the two together, which means this, and this is why I need to do that. That sounds like way more work. It is. It is, but you're doing complex work. So you have to actually be able to write the complexity. And so am I saying older fat? I wish older faculty had exposure to what we have exposure to. I wish that they had read some of the stuff that we read now at big as normal.

The academy is not even where most of our new pieces are. And so you actually have to then build the case and you're right. You might be in a program that's still not interested. It is not. And so that's why I always write back. These are my offerings to you. You have to get out of your program. Right. And you do what you need to do, get out of your program and then show out when you turn your stuff in for your publication, your dissertation get out and then do your writing. Then do your writing. There were things that got left out of my dissertation that, you know, if I was going to write, then I could write about it. Right. But they were things that required more time than I was willing to get to it and required far more nuance than I had time for if I was going to do this deadline. And so, yeah. Yes. I'm not saying it's going to be easy to do always right. With complex. I'm saying, what did, what did the therapist on Instagram say? There's no easy way to do something hard.

And when I asked people, I'm like, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be doctor hard question? And people like both, no, you get one, like in this context, we have to prioritize where you want to be. Right. Do you want to go through this uphill battle and try to yell and then all for your committee and chair to come back, like, yeah, you're right. But I still go, you're going to still do it this way.

You're still gonna do it this way. And, and, and again, it is, it is what we're saying. What we're not saying is you shouldn't push. We're not saying that push and be clear about what the end game is. What are the in game in service of what is my dissertation? I do what I want it to support. So you finished your dissertation the way you want it. Great. You get out your timetable. Cool. That's what's up. I need to get done. We're not saying for sake, integrity, to get a dissertation done. That's unethical. We're not doing that. We're not saying forego a good analysis or proper analysis so that you can be done. We're not saying that we're saying be clear on who your partners are and your faculty, right. Your chair and your committee are people that you're negotiating with. And they still have the final say-so. And if, and when you get done with your program, so be clear on what you need to do for your work and be clear on what you need to do to get out. Sometimes those things are aligned. Sometimes they're not, not right. Not, they're not equitable, not liberatory. It is what it is. That's the tension. If that's your attention, what is your end game? What is the goal? All of this is in service of what, what are you trying to do? Not easy questions, not even fun questions.

You going to get out. You're going to be at the line that you can be, and then you're going to write. That's all I got for that one. I mean, it's, it's not fun.

No. And I'm about to step on some toes. And this last point of you have to take responsibility that you made a decision to join the racist, oppressive institution and program. And I don't say that because you need to be like living in shame, but you overhear yelling at these folks about what they set up for themselves, right? It wasn't made for you. Like I'm thinking about most of the people who listen to this podcast, it was a main for you. And so you going in yelling at the top of your lungs about, they need to change this and they need to change that you came to the house and let

Me be clear, Lacey, that is still true. Right? Multiple things can be true and still be in odds with each other. Yeah. I told the university of Georgia. Yeah. I told the program, which is a practitioner based program. Right. And let me late. He's not coming for my neck. We both went to the same program. This is a general statement. We chose the university of Georgia, white south overbearing board of Regents oversight board over the university and a college that was in a building named after a staunch white supremacist, segregationist with faculty who were kind of split around paradigm like pear heretic, magically, how they function and work. And some of them were clear that there were these more liberating or a liberatory ways to do work. And there were some more far more constructivist or positive. And that's where they were. So when I had my chair, I knew who I was. Right. I was Claire. She thinks I'm the bee's knees. And she don't understand some of this. The beauty for me was she just got out of my way and let me do my work. Right. But if I will that another program and there was no her, right. And then I'm like, oh, well, it's a messed up system. And that just messed up. And I knew that when I got here, Laura Penn David's mom, my chair. So she wanted to, and Lord pan David's people. So

I feel like,

I feel like a low-key uncle Tom saying like, you know where you at? But like where you at? Like, we were clear on where we are and not being clear on where we are. We sh we struggle when we don't need to, is going to be hard. Right. But I don't expect, I don't expect there are some institutions I will not go there because I'm clear on what I don't want to do. Right. Part of the reason why I picked Georgia was because I knew my relationship with the faculty would enable me to do the research I wanted to do. Even if they didn't understand, I knew I would still be able to do it. And there were other programs. I was like, they're not even gonna let me do. They, they're not even gonna lend me. They're not going to let me. And I didn't quite understand a full PhD when I went in.

Like, I think there are things I can say almost five years out that I would have never uttered my first year out. I didn't like I understood it, but I didn't understand all the opportunities that were going to be presented to me. I didn't understand. And fully how much more I should have given myself room to explore and flow and Rome. I didn't understand. I didn't understand the pressures to push folks to be tenured faculty and how that preparation was different than PhD to go back into administration. And what that socialization looked like and how it institutions politics can get in the way of work. Right. Of scholarship. And so some things you just don't know until you get there, right. It's something, if you're at a historically predominantly white institution, CIS, hetero, patriarchal, et cetera, et cetera. Yes. It's there.

Yes. It's going to meet you. Yes. There's probably going to be pushback. Yes. There are probably going to be people there who play in your face and tell you that they support you and talk cash money. Back to research. Yes. There are going to be classmates who are going to dismiss your work, right? Yes. Yes. All of that is true. Yes. And you still got an assignment and that's to get the out, which your degree in AI, right. Having done work with integrity and having done it well. And so, or as well as you going to get it done and whatever raggedy on the back end, get it right. When you're mentoring other people and be clear about what you could have done better. Right. Like, I think I'd tell you all the time. There are things about my dissertation. I just cringe about.

And I'm clear when I'm working with doc students. Now, there are some things about my process. I enjoy that. I don't know if I enjoyed it. I did. I enjoyed the research, but there are some parts about my physical dissertation that I wish I spent more time on that. I wish I'd understood some pieces better. That I wish I had done some things differently, but I will honor that my faculty could see my work. And it could say, you've done your job and you are a scholar and we're moving you through. I appreciate that. And I know on the back end now that I actually can hold my own, like I'm clear on that. I can hold my own. And so these programs is going to program y'all please don't get side tracked because your program and the program is in a collage, it's a colonial institution. That's going to program programs. My programs, institutions on institution. I just threw my hand up because they are, and I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that's what that is. That is that in the context?

Yeah. Okay. Let me give you feel like an auntie. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Trying it. Okay. Caitlin will take it all out. All right. Listen, I feel like that could be a whole episode in itself, but let's, let's the sake of time. Well, listen,

They're there. The podcast of my office is doing, and I wanted to have Brittany Cooper on and have an episode of it called everything's problematic. Now what? Because the naming all the problematic things is helpful. It's a useful part of analysis. Right. And now what, so we've named it now. What, and then now what is, how do you build infrastructure? Be it community, bam. You know, my right away. Be it, listen to my podcast, my coaching taking time to rest myself. Now, what do you do? How do you, how do you build infrastructure to support yourself now that you've named all this stuff right now? What do you do to navigate it and move forward towards your goal? Now? What? And so my home girl, ain't going to be with me this fall. So I'm going to have to wait until she comes back. But yeah, I was like, everything's problematic now, but because there aren't easy answers, it's more so like, we can name those things and still make progress for some stuff. And that's okay. Right? Like everything's problematic. And it is. And now because you have to do something with the, besides the say it's problematic. Anyway, off of that, I'm back.

And the work is about sitting with the tension

Between those two things. It is, and you get to cry, you get to be ugly and you get to ugly Tweed and you get to them may and they get on your nerves. And I did out of that, some days I love my faculty. Some days I could have send them some beds. I mean, I, I quit my program every day in my head. And I put, as I was writing, right. I quit as I was going to make tea. I quit, you know, as I would, whatever. Now what I knew I was going to finish. I didn't know I was going to push through. I wrote in cried. I talked about how tired I was and made myself take breaks and then would text my body and my brain and write for 12 hours. And that thing is right. Kind of what it is that tension living in that tension. Ain't no perfection right here. We out here just human. Right? Yeah. And that it, I mean,

It's challenging, but that is where coaching comes in and it's helping you like manage your mind and your emotions through sitting in attention.

Yeah. The tension is real. It's real. Ooh. It's where the richness is though. My goodness. Okay. Okay. My third one, you ready? Yes. Okay. My third word with the, my third. Wow. For owning your identity as a scholar is making your own, make it your own. K nobody joined the call. Call your like Dr. John a call, call you. So when I was teaching, after I got my doctorate, I moved to the Southwest and was the visiting assistant professor for a year. And I taught a couple of classes, you know, student development theory, intro to research and the history of American higher ed and history of American higher ed is always so dry, so boring, but a girl loves history. So we're going through history, chop it up with my students. I'd have to call her. You should do drunk history. You make history so much fun.

I said, well, history is fun for me. I love history because there are histories, coral. And for me, knowledge is all meat. Knowledge is connected to everything like everything's connected. So whatever, I'm a drunk history of higher education, I'm accurate, but not stuff, right. Maybe a little indignant, but still accurate. That's me. That's kinda my flavor. That's my thing. That's my. That's my sweet spot. And so what I wrote here is how does the knowledge that you have work in real life with folks beyond the academy? And that for me is how you make the work, your own one. I mean, there are plenty of black women who do black feminists work in higher rates, right? There's a whole multiple gangs levels. And I think each of us do it a little bit different. And part of that is because we come from different lived experiences, different academic training, we had different mentors and it means something different to all of us, even if the text doesn't change.

Right. And so for me, you know, knowledge needs to be a plug. Like it needs to stretch beyond my mama. You know, I'm smart because I get it from her and my daddy, but they don't understand all the stuff I'm doing and that's fine. They don't have to, because if I can't make it make sense to them, I don't, I don't actually know my work and my mind, I don't actually know my work. And so, you know, for me, it's nothing to go from womanist theology, to student development, to organizational design and make it all work together to talk about a workplace what black women in the workplace doing like the spiritual care thing as administrative practice. That, that, for me, it's fun. That's like Tuesday at two 30, when I'm tired of looking at base camp, right. I'm tired of being in my Google doc or being able to connect with a faculty colleague who has the desire to want to have a more inclusive classroom, but they don't understand, like they, they don't want students to be harmed in the classroom, but the idea of an inclusive classroom sound too touchy feely for them.

And so being able to connected as something simple as this respect gets in the way of learning and they're like disrespected, and I'm like, let me, let me walk you through how the absence of representation, the absence of multiple histories and the absence of the inability and the, the presence of an inability and unwillingness to disrupt inhumane speech functions as disrespect. And it, that, that, that disrespect makes it really hard for people to one value, this knowledge, take it seriously and do anything with it besides pasture exam. Right. and so, so yeah, make it, make it your own. It's great that you can read these tags again, site assistant that's right. Read it cited. What do you do with it? How does it make sense? What else is there connected to and how do you make those connections, right? How do you make them, what are the connections and how do you make them that came to me. But I put my thumb up for one and two with my pointer finger. So those things, those things matter. So that's my third point. Make it your own. Like they're to be there. There's always a bunch of doctors, me and Lacey's work overlaps in some places. And folks would never tell you that we're the same person, unless they just confused too black. Light-Skinned girls. Exactly.

I'm not an external processor, but like, just go with me. So like this idea of making it your own, like to your earlier point, people don't want to do that because that's a lot of work. It is a much more challenging activity to, to take these, all of these ideas that you've been introduced to you've read and then synthesize it in a way that it is clear what you are saying, and it is reflective of you and your worldview. So a random example that I, that I have, like, that's much more challenging. It's easier to talk about all the problems and write and just regurgitate quotes and whatnot. It's much more challenging to put that, give it your own flavor. And we might have to take this out of it. Doesn't fit. Cause how my brain works. Good that the new movie, the Kevin Hart Netflix.

Okay. So on the surface, the movie comes across like like a, feel-good like a, kind of like a drama romcom type thing that you would just throw on to having a background. Right. But if you researchers like we I'm like, oh, this is what we're doing. So not only we're, we're, we're only gonna have dark skin people cast in this movie. One, two, we're going to talk about issues that come up with black people that are deep, like pregnancy and childbirth and the complications related to that. When you live in a neighborhood that is not reflective of you, like how that can get missed. We're going to talk about, we're going to show examples of black men, not only being able to raise a daughter, but also navigate family dynamics in a healthy way, control and show emotions. And the last thing, there was a lot of things.

But the last thing that really stands out to me is, and we're going to show black, dark black skin people on the screen, eating vanilla ice cream, which is something that can never be done. And I just kept thinking about how much work had to go into this movie that, on this very, like, you can take an elite. Okay. It's cute. But like how much thought, how arguments that had to happen behind the scene with productions direct re-directs people who were funding the movie, like, right. Like all of these things for us to get to this final product. And then people would be willing to go through that all to have this final product.

What I heard you say is a lot of authenticity. Yeah. I mean, when you first while misspeak for me, you know, when you first get knowledge, use generic, you first get knowledge about something. It is just what you read right. In the academy. It's you have it, like you think these things, but then you, you read something and it's this new thing. And some point, if the learning keeps happening, right, then you become to embody it, right. Or you learn how the, not how that idea can be melded, molded, stretched what his connections to you or how you make sense of it, how you actually make sense of it, like shows up. And so when I think about how would work, I mean, I haven't seen father her, but what you just said is people had to fight really hard because they wanted what they knew to be reflected in the movie.

Right. And they wanted it to be their own work. It wasn't a film that they just threw together because we need black people on film and any black people. Right. That's how we get a cath with all model. Like very, just all very fair skin, air quarter, traditionally, pretty people who it live out, all these tropes. We don't actually get into nuance. There's very little tension there. And if there is tension or complexity, you can't really sit in it or sit with it, you move past it or you just erase it suddenly it becomes very flat. And so when you're early on, some, sometimes your stuff is black because you don't really like, you're trying to understand it, trying to make sense of it and you want to get it right. You want to get it right. You already have no critiques of a person, you just trying to get it.

Right. And then you take on more and more, and then you can start to talk across the pieces. Maybe not even gracefully, sometimes it's clunky, but you know, there's some pizza tear and you can say I mean, there's some discrepancies in these sorts of things and those sorts of things. And based on this other stuff that I already knew, because I knew some other stuff before I got here, I had some ideas, there's some tension here or some complexity there, or there's just more than one opinion or thought about how this can look like. And so, yeah. Hmm. Making it your own, making it your own requires you to actually fit with it. One practice that I have that I thought was actually not helpful when I was in school. I thought it slowed me down. Is that anytime I collected data, I literally would just sit with the data.

Like I would read it and then I would put it away and it would be like a marinade. And I was the meat. I would just marinate in it for a week, two weeks. Sometimes I would go back to it, but I would just sit in it, stew in it. And I can tell my chair, oh, I'm behind because I haven't, you know, done this or, you know, done that. And she would say, most people rush past it. They take, they, you know, collect data and they just rush past it to do the analysis you sitting with. It is you honoring is you honoring your own way of doing it. And it, you are sitting with it because there's something in it that you're trying to make sense of. And you don't know that, but that's actually what's happening. And I was like, oh, okay.

Now imagine if I had a chair who was like, you need to hurry up and just get through this. The things I would have missed, right? The things I would've have been able to pick up on or pull apart and say, there's actually something else here. I need to work this out. Or I need to kind of put this off for a minute because this is really what's here. But these things are really fascinating. And so making it your own means you have to be or learn how to be comfortable or learn how to just get over it. People telling you that the way you've made it make sense, doesn't necessarily like it's not wrong. They think of it a little bit differently and differently as in that absolutely is the way to think about that. Here's another way, and they're not wrong. And then they don't contradict what was she like what the original writer or somebody like that said. So, yeah,

That's a good point. Cause what just popped in my mind and gala out here, just water bottle. It has a mind of its own. It's just a poppet.

Oh, am I clicking?

But I'm just thinking about like analysis and right. People, I would get this question and people would be like that wasn't enough time for you to analyze your data. How could you have a full grasp of the data? Who do they talk to that? Cause I feel like, like they're like the first sweat three circles where like back to back every week. Right. And then there was a break and then the last one, but still every time we would do a circle there. Okay. So there's thinking happening during a circle, there's debrief with each other after circle, that's going home, going to sleep, still thinking about it, waking up, calling each other, talking about it again, flipping it around, trying to look at it from different angles. Having each other's circles to bounce off of to have like, these are the pieces that overlap.

Here are some pieces that differ. Why be having a conversations with the people who were in our study because of how things were designed. And, and so it wasn't just our brains. It was like one who was involved too. And the work that we continue to do. And I just take your point. I just, this is a whole nother conversation of mine, of like, I just wished that people didn't always see analysis as it's like step by step by step and really take into consideration how the brain works. And to honor their process and the way that they do things. Cause I had a client a couple of weeks ago who I was like, would you write this chapter four already? Because you, you were able to verbally tell me your findings in a very succinct, clear way. And she was like, well, I didn't do all the individual steps. I'm like,

You didn't write down what you did do. Then let's go from there. At least start with that. I'm like,

You hear the key word in it proposed.

Yes. Yes. Now, if you got a stickler for a chair, then write down what you did, tell them why you changed and then gone about your business. But yeah, I mean, right, that joined if they have questions. Cause here's, here's the thing a, chair's going to ask all their questions. If they got questions about why you change it, they going to ask it and they're going to ask you to help them understand why be ready to tell them why and how that's it. And there are folks out there who will tell you that rigid way of doing it, that I, in it, some Indies, you know, some, some disciplines require that some require and in an insult, here's the thing. Even when you don't do it the way you said you was going to do it, it doesn't mean it wasn't systemic. It still doesn't mean there wasn't an order and how you did it. Right. That doesn't mean that you didn't do it in a way that is appropriate in airports. You want to be clear about how you did it and why a different method was more appropriate for how you went along with it. And that's that's okay. You want to be clear? You want to be clear,

That's it? That's the name of the game. That's 80%. That's really like if it comes down to it, it's like people don't right. Because you have to, which is the hardest thing to realize as student. But you know, you hear it, but you don't hear it, you know, way more than your committee and chair could ever know. Even if there's, if it's, they're saying research area, not, they were not having the experience you had. And so they're not while they may be checking structurally for some things that the detail that you have, they don't even know to ask you those questions. So like, just be clear

When I'm serving on a couple of different listen, I'm asking. So I'm, I'm, I'm going to chapter three first to see what you talk about to make sure it's pulled together. Then I go read two in one. That's what I'm doing. That's typically my order straight to three, then two or one, whichever one I want to read first. I mean second and the questions I'm asking are what I'm checking to make sure that your chapter three, make some kind of sense, what you said you want to do. Okay. And then when you start actually doing your collection and analysis, if you come back with a different chapter three, I'm like, okay, let's make sure that this makes sense for how you do it and what you got to. And sometimes the question is not, why did you change it if you change it? Because you said X, Y, and Z, you wanted that to be your process.

You're finding themes kind of limited. You'd have had such a rich process. Where is the richness? Where's the depth. Where's the, where's the I don't want to say complex, but, but, but where, where is the richness in your findings if there's this other process, right. And how did you, how, how, how do you think analysis would have gone different? Had you went the other route? What was it that prompted you to take this new route? I'm not going to tell you no, you can't change analysis. I'm not their chair, but I'm not going to trip about that. As long as you can be clear about why that was and how you got to, what you got to and that your analysis is still tight and pulled together, that you get actually get to the analysis that you can get to the findings that you purport to have through the analysis that you gave us. That's what I'm looking for. And

There's no right way. Let's just, what did you do? Why did you do it? Is it clear? Yeah.

And I'm talking to the quality people, quiet people y'all know what y'all have had this to say. Y'all know what y'all said. You know what thing you got to test for? That's not my ministry, but these qualified people.

Yes.

There are ways there are ways to get this work done. Yes. Y'all can't see me, but I got my hand up. Like there are ways to get it done.

Well, I feel like we could talk for a whole day or the hour about what to say. I really appreciate you joining this conversation today. And we definitely have to keep, I feel like we need to just have a monthly series or something, because there's so much, so much that we could talk about. If people are interested in following up with you, learning more about you, what's the best way for them to do so.

Oh, on Twitter. John call your pH D J O H N C O L L I E R P H D. That's my public facing Twitter and my, oh, I'm on like, then I'm going to be on it, but I'm on it. That's when you can figure out what I do in real life for my job. And then on Instagram I public facing Instagram is at Dr. J all day with underscores between Dr. Jay Jay all an all day. So definitely.

Yeah, we'll put in the show notes and if you want even more personalized interaction with Heidi, you need to come into the group

On, come on. No Blackie blessings. Thank

You. Yeah. Thanks for having me. No problem. I'm gonna.